| 00:10 | Welcome to the Standard Bank CIB Why She Leads Podcast. |
| 00:16 | My name is Judy Dlamini, and in this series, Standard Bank highlights |
| 00:22 | women powerhouses who lead within Standard Bank. |
| 00:26 | With me, I have the Chief Operating Officer for Transaction Banking, |
| 00:31 | Ashleigh Pledger. Ashleigh, welcome. |
| 00:34 | Thank you. |
| 00:35 | It's such an honour to meet you and I look forward to our conversation. |
| 00:39 | 22 years, right? |
| 00:43 | It's a long time. It is. |
| 00:45 | But it does seem like you having fun within Standard Bank. |
| 00:50 | You started off as an admitted attorney. |
| 00:53 | How has the change been from being an attorney to being a banker? |
| 00:58 | That change actually only happened fairly recently. |
| 01:01 | I only took up the COO role in CIB Transaction Banking |
| 01:06 | at the beginning of last year and it was mind blowing. |
| 01:11 | But what I definitely realised was the legal skills |
| 01:15 | that I had developed over the years actually stood me in good stead. |
| 01:19 | And you know, lawyers can read, |
| 01:22 | we can absorb the detail |
| 01:24 | and we can manage and juggle various balls. |
| 01:27 | And I think that's quite a helpful skill to have. |
| 01:32 | So the transition and, |
| 01:35 | you know, I have an amazing team and I have a very supportive boss, |
| 01:40 | and there's wide tolerance for |
| 01:43 | and encouragement, for the different ways of engaging with different reflections. |
| 01:47 | So actually, it was a very kind process. |
| 01:52 | It was actually really, like you say, fun. |
| 01:54 | There's some power in this legal background. |
| 01:57 | Yeah, |
| 01:57 | and I think it's your legal training actually gives you, |
| 02:00 | and Sim actually said it and he highlighted it. |
| 02:04 | He says the ability to manage at a strategic level |
| 02:07 | the high level, and then to dive down deep into the detail, |
| 02:10 | and lawyers have to be able to, you know, |
| 02:13 | run that spectrum of where you need to operate. |
| 02:16 | So it definitely does stand you in good stead. |
| 02:20 | It's amazing then, how over 22 years, |
| 02:25 | how has the culture evolved for you within the bank? |
| 02:28 | So I was reflecting that I've actually grown up in the bank and |
| 02:33 | and I think |
| 02:34 | coming in from practice as it then was, was quite |
| 02:39 | adversarial, very, you know, almost combative. |
| 02:43 | You must remember the lawyers are there to articulate and to win |
| 02:47 | whatever case it is that they have. |
| 02:49 | And one of the biggest reflections for me coming into |
| 02:53 | our bank was just the warmth |
| 02:56 | and just how everything |
| 02:59 | was configured to support and to treat you like an asset, |
| 03:03 | not as a liability and to help you reach your full potential. |
| 03:08 | And so it's an open invitation |
| 03:11 | to grow up here, make your mistakes. |
| 03:15 | And I've certainly made my mistakes. |
| 03:17 | There's been a lot of smoothing of some of the rougher edges, |
| 03:20 | but I really appreciate the, you know, the ability that I've had to |
| 03:25 | to grow with the organisation and to be where I needed to be. |
| 03:29 | Sometimes, like I was saying, you know, you want to |
| 03:32 | you know, pedal to the metal and you go in hard, and then |
| 03:36 | other times you just need to lift the pressure a little bit |
| 03:40 | when you're transitioning, you're having children, |
| 03:42 | if you maybe studying and the organisation has got a lot of flex built into |
| 03:48 | to allow you to do that. |
| 03:49 | That's amazing |
| 03:50 | because as an outsider looking in, you always think banking, |
| 03:55 | financial services is so hard, it's so macho, it’s actually not nurturing, |
| 04:00 | but you are actually saying it actually is the opposite. |
| 04:02 | Absolutely, |
| 04:03 | and I think that has been the case over those 22 years. |
| 04:07 | And that's not to say that you don't have highs and lows, |
| 04:11 | you know, you will have times and I call them golden eras where |
| 04:15 | you have a team and an era of people that you're moving |
| 04:21 | through the organisation with, |
| 04:22 | and it's just really special times, and |
| 04:24 | you have other times |
| 04:25 | people move, people change, and maybe it's not as golden, |
| 04:29 | so you have, you have the more rewarding times, |
| 04:34 | you know, over those long 22 years, it can't be nirvana every day. |
| 04:40 | No, It couldn't be like that every day. No, exactly. |
| 04:42 | It's not that much of a bubble. |
| 04:44 | Yeah. |
| 04:44 | It really feeds, I think, across all the human dimensions. |
| 04:49 | If it's your technical, |
| 04:50 | if it's your personal development, your interpersonal skills, |
| 04:54 | there’s every kind of support |
| 04:58 | or encouragement to take up any of those initiatives |
| 05:02 | and to evolve and follow your dream and where it is that you need to |
| 05:08 | take your life to. |
| 05:09 | But those options just have to be taken. |
| 05:12 | You know, they're not served on platters. |
| 05:13 | Yeah. |
| 05:14 | You have to stand out as being a candidate |
| 05:18 | that the investment in your development is, you know, worth it. |
| 05:23 | So it's |
| 05:26 | and it's not a one day game. |
| 05:27 | I think, you know, it can look intimidating from the outside |
| 05:30 | because you just think you come in and you operate there. |
| 05:33 | But that wouldn't be fair. |
| 05:34 | That would be setting people up for failure. |
| 05:36 | So you come in and you find your path, |
| 05:40 | and all the initiatives and support are there. |
| 05:44 | And obviously what's really good is if you have a line manager, |
| 05:48 | you have a team and the combined win, if everybody's winning, you know, |
| 05:54 | the team, the business, the bank, the continent, everybody benefits. |
| 05:58 | And that's actually the ideal, so, |
| 06:00 | you know, in this day and age, I think it's a it's a tough world, |
| 06:03 | it’s volatile world. |
| 06:04 | And I think it's an organisation that aspires |
| 06:07 | to bring out the best in humanity, for the common good. |
| 06:11 | And I think that's the really powerful thing. |
| 06:15 | Maybe our countries, |
| 06:17 | our leaders, our global leaders, |
| 06:19 | maybe there’s some of them falling short, you know, role modelling. |
| 06:24 | And, you really have to respect an organisation |
| 06:27 | that really tries to do right, by the world at large and by its people |
| 06:33 | and obviously her her clients. |
| 06:36 | No, definitely, |
| 06:37 | it says... it gives us a very good picture that you've been here |
| 06:42 | for more than 20 years and you still feel the way you do. |
| 06:45 | I'm sure you have mentors that you had along the way. |
| 06:49 | Definitely, |
| 06:50 | and I love that I know who those people are, |
| 06:53 | when I find myself quoting them, you know, as I go about my day to day |
| 06:57 | and just, you know, my first principal in practice, |
| 07:00 | he always said, |
| 07:01 | “Read your papers Ashleigh. |
| 07:03 | You must read your papers, |
| 07:05 | people don't read”. |
| 07:06 | So just building and fostering that sense for applying your mind, |
| 07:10 | doing your best, |
| 07:12 | putting your best foot forward. |
| 07:13 | And sometimes it's not perfect, but it's, you know, |
| 07:17 | just really giving fully of yourself and committing to doing things |
| 07:21 | to the best of your ability, I think is a great differentiator. |
| 07:26 | And then my first line manager at the bank was an amazing lady as well. |
| 07:30 | And she had a whole lot of just sound common sense, |
| 07:36 | practical ways of doing things |
| 07:38 | that to this day she laid a foundation and a legacy |
| 07:42 | that we reaped the rewards from for many, many years afterwards. |
| 07:47 | And I still look today |
| 07:48 | across some of our areas in transaction banking. |
| 07:51 | And I'm like, wow, |
| 07:52 | you know, you guys missed out on somebody like that. |
| 07:55 | Just giving you that solid introduction and foundation into the organisation. |
| 08:00 | You know, we keep aspiring and trying to |
| 08:03 | to pay it forward |
| 08:04 | all of the benefits we've had. |
| 08:06 | And then, yes, I've had some really fun leaders |
| 08:10 | over my time in the organisation, people that really supported and backed, |
| 08:15 | you know, me and, you know, some of the struggles I was going through, |
| 08:20 | my team. |
| 08:21 | And they just kind of put their what do they say? |
| 08:24 | Put your arms around your team |
| 08:26 | and just look after your team and I will look after you. |
| 08:29 | And that was all I needed. |
| 08:31 | That's great. |
| 08:32 | I actually have a message from one of your mentors, Claire Denny, |
| 08:38 | That was my first line manager. |
| 08:40 | So here goes. |
| 08:42 | This is the letter from her to you. |
| 09:16 | It's funny, I only met you a few minutes ago, |
| 09:21 | but I can feel that warmth, |
| 09:23 | that just draws you in and you start chatting and you can’t stop. |
| 09:27 | How do you motivate your team? |
| 09:29 | Those connections are important. |
| 09:31 | Nobody wants to be a number and just arrive, not be seen, |
| 09:36 | not be appreciated and not be valued. |
| 09:40 | So for me, I find it so important that people that are entrusted |
| 09:46 | with the care of others, which is what your line managers are, |
| 09:50 | there's a huge responsibility on them to foster that connection |
| 09:55 | that people need to feel |
| 09:57 | to the organisation |
| 09:59 | and what we're trying to achieve, and to each other. |
| 10:03 | So if you're not fostering that, if you don't give people a sense |
| 10:07 | of belonging and value |
| 10:10 | for their contributions, they disengaged. |
| 10:14 | So for me, building a team is like building a family. |
| 10:17 | You know, it's nurturing and constantly building those connections. |
| 10:21 | And obviously, you know, it's a high performing environment, so |
| 10:25 | we need people that are invested and want to reach their full potential, want to |
| 10:31 | just see where their paths take them |
| 10:33 | and where they going and what opportunities come up. |
| 10:35 | So when you have that magical combination, |
| 10:38 | it's actually unbelievable what you unleash. |
| 10:42 | So for me, teams are about creating connection |
| 10:46 | and intimacy, support |
| 10:49 | and you move forward together. |
| 10:52 | And I always say, you know, I love that |
| 10:53 | we bask in, you know, if somebody does well, we bask in your reflected glory, |
| 10:58 | so uplifting and celebrating each other. |
| 11:01 | It's so healthy. |
| 11:03 | If you've got a healthy human ecosystem, |
| 11:07 | there's no limit on what you can achieve. |
| 11:15 | You know, back 30 years ago, in my world, |
| 11:19 | you spoke about diversity, |
| 11:22 | then it's moved, diversity and inclusion. |
| 11:26 | Then it became belonging also. |
| 11:28 | And you add the ‘you matter’ element, as a leader |
| 11:33 | you show the people that you lead, that they matter |
| 11:36 | and, yeah, that's why you've been so successful. |
| 11:39 | I have no doubt that you've mentored a lot of people |
| 11:44 | based on what you've said, how many people you are mentoring now? |
| 11:49 | If you are able to say that. |
| 11:51 | There's the mentoring that you do as part of your daily, |
| 11:54 | you know, engaging with your team, your direct team formally, |
| 11:58 | then there's some people that will approach you for mentorship |
| 12:02 | engagements and initiatives. |
| 12:04 | There's quite a couple of those, |
| 12:06 | you know, I have |
| 12:08 | Shimiso in the SA team I have Tersia also in our |
| 12:13 | TXB, SA team. |
| 12:15 | I connect, |
| 12:17 | I connect a lot with people. |
| 12:18 | So, and I prefer it that way to formal mentoring, you know, because then |
| 12:23 | we need to be clear about what do we want to achieve after the mentoring. |
| 12:28 | What is the, the leveling up that the person is looking for. |
| 12:32 | So I find, theres... mentoring is compulsory |
| 12:37 | once you get to a senior level because you do need to be harvesting |
| 12:41 | and investing back into the people |
| 12:45 | that are your people that you journey with. |
| 12:47 | Yeah. Lift as you rise. Yeah. |
| 12:50 | Yeah, I love that, I do love that. |
| 12:52 | Actually, I think there's a message from one of your mentees. |
| 13:59 | That's amazing |
| 14:00 | and I wish we could have more of that |
| 14:04 | because we always say women should mentor others and open the doors |
| 14:10 | and send that ladder back so that someone else could come, you know. |
| 14:14 | So, yeah, well done in that space. |
| 14:18 | When you started here, you had just got engaged. |
| 14:22 | So you've got married here and two kids later |
| 14:26 | you're still here and are continuing to rise. |
| 14:29 | What would you say to a 20 year old |
| 14:33 | who has just finished, |
| 14:35 | okay, she is quite bright because she just finished that |
| 14:38 | junior degree and she's looking at all the options that the world has to offer. |
| 14:43 | What would you say to her? |
| 14:44 | I would say, don't waste the opportunities |
| 14:48 | that will be presented here, and put your best foot forward every day. |
| 14:54 | Do not just skim the surface. |
| 14:57 | You have to go in 100% and you will not believe |
| 15:03 | what the organisation and what will come back to you. |
| 15:07 | In fact, you know, always find the opportunities, find those. |
| 15:11 | This is what opportunity looks like. |
| 15:13 | You know, those that put their hands up and put themselves forward and just |
| 15:19 | are generous. |
| 15:20 | They are generous of spirit. |
| 15:21 | They give of themselves and they give of their skill and they give of their time. |
| 15:25 | So don't hold back. |
| 15:27 | It's really important just to be you |
| 15:31 | and to back yourself. |
| 15:32 | And it's hard for a 20 year old, you know, a young person to do that. |
| 15:37 | But I just find |
| 15:40 | I love that there's a quote and I'm probably going to get it wrong, |
| 15:42 | but it's like, just be yourself because everyone else is already taken. |
| 15:46 | Ha, ha, I love it. |
| 15:49 | And who's got time to manufacture a persona. |
| 15:52 | So just be the best version of you, |
| 15:55 | and even sometimes it's a bit messy, but that, you know, |
| 15:58 | if you're always willing to learn, accept your mistakes, |
| 16:02 | learn from them, and try not to repeat them. |
| 16:06 | That's all anybody ever asks. |
| 16:08 | That's so true. |
| 16:10 | And that's what parents are supposed to say to their kids, actually. |
| 16:16 | You can only be the best version of yourself. |
| 16:18 | If someone didn't know you and they get to know you. |
| 16:24 | What surprises do they have in store about who you are? |
| 16:28 | I think I can come across as quite |
| 16:31 | severe, quite intimidating. |
| 16:34 | And I know for many years, and I don't know if it was coming |
| 16:38 | out of the legal field, you can sometimes be seen as aggressive |
| 16:42 | as opposed to assertive, you know, |
| 16:45 | so it can be a little bit much. |
| 16:48 | You know, people initially will be a bit, she's a lot. |
| 16:51 | But I think once people just calm down and just, |
| 16:55 | you know, we have an opportunity just to be and just to get on with it, |
| 16:59 | they realise I'm definitely not there to fire any guns, |
| 17:05 | you know, I'm there just because I want to get the job done |
| 17:08 | and I want to get it done to the best of everybody's ability. |
| 17:11 | So actually not so scary, I would suppose they would say. |
| 17:17 | And I'm really not trying hard to be scary, but I think it's just, |
| 17:21 | like you say, just from the outside looking in, people don't know you. |
| 17:25 | They don't know what's going on. |
| 17:26 | I'm pretty easy-going and I can't stand it when people are very rigid |
| 17:31 | and, you know, we have to behave in a certain way, |
| 17:34 | which is why Practice didn't really resonate with me. |
| 17:37 | It's very formal. |
| 17:38 | There’s certain ways to come, you know, to speak. And |
| 17:42 | I... it didn'twork for me. |
| 17:45 | But, you know, I find that people |
| 17:47 | find it easy to call women leaders aggressive |
| 17:51 | when they are assertive and assertion is reserved for men. |
| 17:55 | So I think it's a very selective term, |
| 17:58 | depending on who the leader is. |
| 18:00 | Yeah. Yeah. |
| 18:02 | What don't you like about your job? |
| 18:06 | It's just a lot. |
| 18:08 | It's a lot. |
| 18:09 | There’s so many balls. |
| 18:11 | And sometimes, you know, |
| 18:12 | you just see all the balls dropping like, oh, those are all my balls dropping. |
| 18:15 | I'll pick them up. |
| 18:16 | But yet that is the biggest attractor for me, |
| 18:19 | because it's ever changing, |
| 18:20 | and I never have everything sewn up. |
| 18:23 | So the challenge is constant and it's a battle |
| 18:27 | because I'm going to get this |
| 18:29 | figured out and aligned. |
| 18:31 | But just as you gave one side figured it's changed and it's different, |
| 18:35 | you know, on the other side. |
| 18:36 | But that's what's kept me so busy and engaged. |
| 18:38 | You just never master it. And it can be exhausting. |
| 18:41 | But yeah, it helps when you've got amazing people to draw on. |
| 18:46 | Yeah, just to help you. |
| 18:48 | How do you unwind? |
| 18:51 | Okay. |
| 18:52 | The honest truth, |
| 18:55 | I mean, I love reading, but actually I find it so easy to doomscroll, |
| 19:00 | you know, and you just get sucked into your TikTok and just, |
| 19:04 | there's so much out there, |
| 19:05 | so for a busy mind, you know, it's lovely just to see so many different things. |
| 19:10 | And TikTok, you can come across astrophysics and then humour and cats |
| 19:15 | and dogs and people, but I, I do love to read |
| 19:19 | so if I can I, I'm trying hard |
| 19:23 | not to get, go down the social media rabbit holes |
| 19:27 | and I like to spend time with my family chilling, |
| 19:31 | beach time, holiday time. |
| 19:34 | And we like to chill together so they definitely my DNA. |
| 19:37 | Yeah. |
| 19:38 | Yeah. That's amazing. You've done well. |
| 19:41 | You've really done well. Congratulations. |
| 19:44 | What does the next ten years look like? |
| 19:46 | So I've recently ascended to the fifth floor of life, |
| 19:53 | so I'll put it. |
| 19:54 | Yeah. |
| 19:54 | So we are basically we're looking at now is the time |
| 19:59 | where I feel quite a sense of responsibility to, |
| 20:06 | to make sure I'm putting back into the organisation that whatever |
| 20:09 | I'm setting up will benefit the future generations and leaders coming through. |
| 20:14 | I'm in such a happy place. |
| 20:15 | Like I say, it just I'm busy. |
| 20:18 | I don't have time to think about the next, |
| 20:23 | you know and my second career, ja, |
| 20:25 | I started you know, I do have to have a plan |
| 20:28 | I can't arrive without a plan, so yeah, that's going to be the next 5 to 10 years. |
| 20:33 | Yeah, well you have time, |
| 20:35 | you've just arrived on the fifth floor. |
| 20:37 | Those of us that are looking more towards the seventh floor, enjoy it. |
| 20:43 | Ha, ha, yeah. |
| 20:46 | It's been an honour to meet with you and to engage with you. |
| 20:50 | You've done well. And congratulations. |
| 20:53 | Thank you, Dr Judy. |
| 20:55 | It's actually been an amazing experience. |
| 20:57 | And really, I thank you for the messages as well. |
| 20:59 | You know, it's so nice when you get those sound bites from you past coming back |
| 21:04 | and just to hear that as well. |
| 21:05 | So thank you. |
| 21:07 | It's gone really quickly. |
| 21:09 | Yeah, I wouldn't have thought |
| 21:09 | Yeah, I wouldn't have thought |
| 21:10 | Thank you, Ashleigh. |
| 24:21 | I worked with Ash in the early days of her career. |
| 24:25 | Besides being incredibly good technically |
| 24:29 | two leadership traits were immediately apparent. |
| 24:32 | Firstly, her strength of character |
| 24:35 | and secondly, the connections she found with people. |
| 24:39 | She had a wonderful warmth and sense of humour that just drew you in. |
| 24:44 | I have no doubt that both traits have stood her |
| 24:49 | in good stead as she has progressed in her career. |
| 25:15 | It was two years ago that I felt that I had reached a glass |
| 25:20 | ceiling and in advancing my career, I reached out to Ashleigh at that |
| 25:23 | time to ask if she would be willing to share her guidance and advice with me. |
| 25:28 | Ashleigh not only was willing to share insights with me, |
| 25:31 | but whole hearted, and it took to continue mentoring me on a longer term basis. |
| 25:37 | Over these two years, her guidance has not only placed me |
| 25:41 | in the ideal position to take advantage of the next steps in advancing my career, |
| 25:46 | but has also helped me in overcoming other challenges |
| 25:49 | that were preventing me from achieving my stretch goals. |
| 25:52 | I'm very grateful to Ashleigh for being so generous with both her time |
| 25:57 | and sharing her wealth of experience, especially in our corporate environment |
| 26:01 | where both time and knowledge sharing are scarce commodities. |
| 26:05 | Not only have I learned from Ashleigh but this has placed me in a position |
| 26:09 | where I'm able to pay this forward to other people that have approached me |
| 26:13 | for similar guidance. |
| 26:15 | I very much look forward to continuing this journey with |
| 26:18 | Ashleigh’s valuable guidance. |
